Gunner Quinn
If, in desperate times we need to take risks that would in normal times be unacceptable and possibly extra legal with the extraordinary circumstances. Examining the limits of the risks that we would consider to be acceptable would be an individual’s judgment call. Some of the contents of one of my recent articles is predicated on the situation when and where we might be faced with in a future dystopian world where we would be forced to hunt in order to supplement our limited food source to avoid starvation. Some of the methods involving firearms are not now, or should they be considered to be acceptable, such as the means of hunting as described in the recollection and story of a boy who hunted and successfully taken 77 deer with only a .22 rimfire rifle. See: Hunting in Desperate Times, Part 1, by Tunnel Rabbit.
The young boy hunted to feed himself and his family who was struggling to find enough to eat during the Great Depression. His family raised hogs and other animals, yet they did not have enough to eat, regardless. Often during the Great Depression, hogs were raised and the meat and fat sold to those who could afford it, so that the family could afford to buy other more essential items that were necessary for daily living and for the continued operation of their small farm. The hogs were too valuable to eat. The family would then need an additional source of food as the hog was sold for scarce cash money. I anticipate that I might have to do something similar to obtain scarce silver or ammunition in this possible future as that may be the only form of currency available. I will also use other means to obtain a more fungible barter item or currency of the time. These means could be my reloading skills or gunsmiths skills, or a variety of other possibilities, including hunting, and repairing items.
As an avid reloader of rifle cartridges, I am well acquainted with the risks involved in developing safe rifle cartridges. I am not an expert reloader of shotgun shells either. While the principles are largely similar, there are differences and precautions that reloaders of rifle cartridges’ do not have to contend with. For example, using a hard cast slug in a shotgun barrel that has a choke could result in a damaged shotgun barrel. The use of steel shot should be used in modern shotgun barrels designed for steel shot and so forth are such conditions a reloader must be aware of. Even the so-called experts are limited by their experience of their generation, and should read up on the current projectiles that do not use lead, but harder metals that are unforgiving and create higher pressures.
Often experienced reloaders discover and learn something new. If we are not learning something new, then we are falling behind. And we can use this new information to better and safely reload using unusual components in desperate times when there is no other means available to make our firearms function well enough to successfully take game. I can go so far as to use black powder in a .30-06, but I must also know what would be the most suitable projectile to use for the low velocities of about 1,600fps produced to reduce the risk of failure and to bring back something to eat. We might use Hornady’s very soft round-nosed projectiles or the new and heavy .300 Blackout projectiles that are designed to expand at subsonic velocities.
In any future desperate times, we will have to experiment and take risks that are not acceptable today, and we shall have to accept the risks involved as part of our daily existence. And so was the pioneer experience that built this now-dying nation. In this day and age, most people are woefully and extremely risk-averse.
This is a response to a recent commenter’s opinion and constructive criticism in response to a statement made by myself in a recent article Hunting in Desperate Times. In part, he wrote:
“Tunnel Rabbit may wish to review the following statement in today’s article:
‘The .410 2-1/2 inch standard shell is noticeably on the light side, but good enough for small birds, and squirrels out in the open. I used the .22 LR to shoot pheasant. And .410 slugs would be good enough on deer at close range well under 50 yards and it could also handle .45 Long Colt, but the smooth bore will not stabilize this round, so slugs and 00 buck are the only viable choices.’
If I understand correctly, the .410 bore is 0.410-0.415 inches without a choke, while the .45 Colt shoots a .452 diameter bullet. It is possible to shoot a .410 in a dual-chambered .45 Colt, but the wad will need to fill an extra ~.042? nominal gap, or 0.021 per side, which is within reason.
What I have done in a Cylinder Bore .410 smooth bore, is push a. (Black powder could also be used.) It is functionally accurate out to 50 feet, in my experience. Not great, but a cheap expedient slug. Certainly better than nothing. They do keyhole, so terminal sectional density isn’t necessarily a lot better than a foster slug. However, it isn’t as likely to fall apart.”
My Reliance on the Scientific Method
I firmly believe in the scientific method that relies upon exhaustive real-world and controlled testing methods to develop an empirical level of knowledge that supports or does not support a hypothesis that could accepted as a scientific theory after peer review has validated the means of testing by replicating the experiment, the testing methods and data derived, and the logic by which was used to formulate a conclusion. Some believe that a theory is scientific fact that is immutable. But in my opinion it is merely a consensus that is hopefully evidence-based. Unfortunately, man’s ability to discern what is natural law is based upon his limited perspective that is limited in various and in many ways. As is the usual course, further scientific inquiry often discovers another theory that supersedes a previous theory.
For example in physics, Quantum Mechanics contradicts all or part of Einstein’s Theory that is based upon Newton’s Laws. Yet elements of these ‘theories’ are still used to define and predict what we observe daily. That is how science is used in reality, and how it advances our knowledge and perception of God’s creation on a secular level. We do not use Quantum Mechanics to predict ballistics. We have the Newtonian Laws of Physics for that.
Fortunately, I had an introductory college-level physics class in high school before they did away with real education in our schools. And fortunately, God is not restricted or operates within the narrow views and mankind’s definition of His creation. Fortunately, God is rational and practical, and we can develop knowledge empirically and use it in the form of a theory or as a set of rules to help us with our daily lives. That said, be advised that I am merely a country boy who is without the benefit of a higher formal education on this or any other topic, and who is not qualified to have an opinion in these matters, but can only by the force of argument attempt to justify my opinion. In my vernacular, ‘I ain’t no professional’ in any regard, yet I will strive to apply the principles of The Scientific Method to objectively derive the truth.
The Truth About .45 Long Colt and the .410 Shotgun
While I should have been more conservative in my statement about using .45 Colt in a .410 shotgun, given the widely available evidence that was used to support this opinion, I should have included some cautionary words for those who would risk their well-being by experimenting and using a cartridge that was not designed for use in .410 Shotgun. I do this now. Because this practice is now in use by some manufacturers of particular firearms chambered in .410 gauge shotguns that also use .45 Colt (commonlty called .45 Long Colt) as recommended ammunition for that firearm, it did not occur to me that readers might be at risk given my opinion at that time. That opinion is now modified and caveats provided and made available for peer review.
There are manufacturers who do label their modern firearms as suitable for both cartridges and are stamped on the barrel ” .410/.45 Long Colt”, or some variation thereof. Because there are numerous video demonstrations that document this practice in vintage .410 shotguns, I felt it was unnecessary to support that opinion given the overwhelming evidence of the field testing as exhibited in these videos indicates that .45 Long Colt can be used in some .410 shotguns without damaging the shotgun or the shooter in any way.
In fact, the empty brass cases of the expended .45 Long Colt are easy removed from these vintage .410 shotgun chambers as seen in these selected videos. By the guidelines that reloading manuals define, this is an indication that unsafe chamber pressures did not occur. I have not personally experimented with this idea and examined the spent brass cases of .45 Long Colt cartridge shot out of a .410 shotgun. However, the practice is widespread as can be seen in the few of a long list video demonstrations available on the Internet, and that are randomly chosen the few examples that are offered below.
Note that backyard testing does not meet the level of proof that validates that all .45 Long Colt can be safely fired from all .410 shotguns. In fact, any methods, means, or materials used to reload a cartridge including the use of …”.358 LSWC into a birdshot wad on top of 12 grains of 2400 powder” cannot be considered to be safe unless it falls within the best and time tested practices that are defined in reloading manuals.
Substitutions or deviations from the best practices defined by published reloading manuals are inherently risky and may result in bodily harm. I now better understand the trials and tribulations experienced by the late Paul Harrell, may he rest in peace.
This video produced by Iraqveteran888 is a careful examination that tests many cartridges and cartridges much more powerful than .45 Long Colt in an older and presumably vintage .410 shotgun. A .454 Casual is one such higher-pressure cartridge that failed to damage the .410 shotgun used as the test subject. Exacting measurements are used to determine if the test barrel had been expanded or damaged. See:
Lost Arts Part 6: The Ultimate .410 Shotgun
Here is another demonstration performed by a respected YouTube channel, Garand Thumb. In this video, several firearms are subjected to testing that results in damage to the test rifle. Beware that firearms can fail if the incorrect ammunition is used. These are a few of the examples of how firearms can be damaged and expose the user to bodily harm. Other experiments are conducted that used the incorrect ammunition in a firearm did not produce damage to the firearm used.
We Fire the Wrong Calibers Through The Wrong Guns
Here are a few of many other videos that demonstrate that some .45 Long Colt can be safely used in some vintage .410 shotguns.
These videos are about modern .410 or .45 Long Colt rifles, handguns, or shotguns that are presumably and currently for sale as new that are designed or designated as suitable for both .410 shot shells and .45 Long Colt ammunition. Such firearms that are designed to handle both ammunition types will be indicated as safe for both cartridges if the manufacturer in some way indicates this to be true about their particular product. Typically this indication or information is stamped onto the barrel. Also see:
Rossi Brawler 45 Colt / .410
TAURUS JUDGE REVIEW! 45 COLT OR 410 SHOTGUN ROUNDS? WHICH IS BETTER?? TELL US WHAT YOU THINK.
Bond Arms Rowdy 45 Colt 410 3 Inch Shots and Ammo review “SHORT VERSION”
Closing Remarks
By adhering to the highest intellectual standards of the Scientific Method, we cannot conclude that all .45 Long Colt ammunition can be used safely in all .410 shotguns. Given the many successful demonstration videos that concluded or imply that all .45 Long Colt ammunition can be safely fired in .410 shotguns, this is not my conclusion after putting this issue under closer examination. One can logically conclude that given the evidence provided that some .45 Long Colt ammunition can be used safely in some .410 shotguns.
However, if one is using .45 Colt ammunition that fires a hard cast projectile instead of the very soft lead bullet designed for the subsonic velocities. Typically, it is a projectile that not much harder than 12+ BHN (Brinell Hardness Number) that is often used in commercial .45 Colt “Cowboy” load ammunition. A hard cast projectile may not be malleable enough to be swaged by the smaller bore diameter of the .410 shotgun without choke, or with a barrel that has a full choke and is typically less than .380 in diameter.
Most vintage .410 shotguns with fluid steel barrels are designed to handle ammunition that produces a chamber pressure in excess of 13,000 psi on a regular basis. A hard cast projectile that reloaders and some commercial ammunition do use for making their .45 caliber cartridges would cause much higher pressures than standard commercial .45 Long Colt ammunition and that might result in a catastrophic failure of the action in the area of the chamber and cause bodily injury.
But the preponderance of the evidence as represented here in part by the short list of video demonstrations is only a part of the process that develops what at some point might be considered to be empirical fact. By adhering to the highest intellectual standards of The Scientific Method, we cannot however conclude that all .45 Long Colt ammunition can be used safely in all .410 shotguns. For example, if a hand load that used a hard cast lead .45 caliber or larger bullet were used, in this circumstance, the ammunition would increase the likelihood that a .410 barrel with or without a choke might become bulged or damaged by the projectile that is not soft enough to be swaged and reduced in diameter by the .410 shotgun barrel. And there might be other instances and ammunition that might also cause damage to a .410 shotgun barrel that was not engineered by the manufacturer to safety handle all possible .45 Long Colt ammunition to literally explode.
Conclusion
As a precaution, do not use any .45 Long Colt ammunition in a .410 shotgun unless the manufacturer has stamped the .45 Colt chambering on the barrel. Even so, I would not use handloaded .45 Long Colt in any .410 shotgun even if the manufacturer indicates that it is safe to do so. I would use the most conservative guidelines available and hereby retract any of my earlier and blanket comments or statements that may have recommended or implied that using any or all .45 Long Colt ammunition in all .410 shotguns can be done so safely.
Read the full article here