Ep. 787: True Crime in the Outdoors

00:00:08
Speaker 1: This is the Meeater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten, and in my case, underwear.

00:00:15
Speaker 2: Listening past, you can’t.

00:00:18
Speaker 1: Predict anything brought to you by first Light. When I’m hunting, I need gear that won’t quit. First Light builds, no compromise, gear that keeps me in the field longer, no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at first light dot com. That’s f I R S T L I T E dot com. All right, ladies and gentlemen, we’re fixing the follow. Uh, we’re fixing the follow some blood trails.

00:00:48
Speaker 2: You like that?

00:00:49
Speaker 1: That’s good. Yeah, it’s a good start. Go follow some serious blood trails. Uh, you guys, listen to the show. Sometime ago on our on our on the Meat Eater podcast feed, we ran a thing called blood Trails and it was put together and hosted by doctor Jordan Sillers.

00:01:03
Speaker 2: Who’s sitting with me right now.

00:01:04
Speaker 1: Not a medical doctor, No, not a medical doctor of English English, that’s right. Yeah, yeah, he specializes in speaking in this language.

00:01:14
Speaker 2: Yep. I can only help you study this language.

00:01:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can only help you medically if you’re you know, gonna die of bad grammar.

00:01:20
Speaker 1: Along those lines are you trying to explain something to the doctor. You can’t get your point across. You might have come to a doctor like this, there you go, will help you put it into clear, concise, powerful prose. So in that way, he’s a medical professional. He ran, We ran blood trails, and the blood trails app it was kind of like it was like a I don’t know I put it.

00:01:41
Speaker 2: It was a It was an inaugural.

00:01:43
Speaker 1: It was a test episode where we told a story of an unsolved of an unsolved murder.

00:01:53
Speaker 2: We recap that murder real quick. It’s kind of the who the who, what where why? Yeah? Sure.

00:01:57
Speaker 3: So it was a hunter in Virginia named David Stack and he went out hunting with his son and his brother and it was, you know, opening day of turkey season. He went out and his son and brother came back to their cabin and he didn’t show up, so they went out searching for him. They searched and searched. Eventually they found him. He’d been shot with a twenty two caliber rifle projectile and they had never figured out who did it. The Virginia Wildlife Agency was in charge of the murder investigation, and they were never able to name a suspect. The friend of the family who I spoke with, has some you know, ideas about some of perhaps the neighbors maybe knew something or were involved.

00:02:50
Speaker 2: This is just me as a dude.

00:02:51
Speaker 3: Yes, sure, sure, but for whatever reason, they were never they were never able to collect the evidence.

00:02:57
Speaker 2: Then private land, how many people could be there?

00:03:00
Speaker 3: Well, so this is part of the thing, is that one one of the neighboring landowners was allegedly guiding you know, turkey hunters, which he was not supposed to do. So it’s possible that there were some people in those woods who were not neighbors, who were strangers to the area.

00:03:17
Speaker 1: That’s one of the thing I meant by his private land meaning Okay, how many possible people were running around the woods. I listened to the episode. Mind it blows my mind.

00:03:28
Speaker 3: I I know, I know. And I talked with like.

00:03:32
Speaker 1: You could fit the people that did it. It’s like, you know, and you could fit them around this table. Yeah, and it’d be like you’d call them in. I’d be like with my kids, I’d be like, we’re all staying here until someone admits.

00:03:44
Speaker 3: So you shot the guy. That might be unconstitutional. I’m not I’m not sure. I’m not a lawyer, but I don’t think that’s allowed. But yeah, you know, it really is. It’s like, what can we find evidence for? And if there’s no evidence? And I talked with our buddy Brent Reeves, who was in law enforcement for a long time, and he explained to me the difficulty of investigating a crime scene like this because you don’t know how large it is. It’s very difficult to find physical evidence because you know, the leaves hide things, and you know, it’s just tough. So they were never able to name a suspect. I’m sure investigators have suspicions, but yeah, but if you’re an investigator, you can’t. You know, you got one shot, right, And this is something that’s been as I’ve reported these other cases. Investigators, you know, they tell me this, you get one shot at a conviction, and if you don’t have what you need, you walk.

00:04:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they need to bring in one of those cold case specialists, those real crack commando investigators.

00:04:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, come on, I’m sure I’m sure the family would welcome that. And I know that there have been I don’t know about crack commandos, but you know people assigned specifically to this case. Over the years and they haven’t you know, made any headway that they’re able to share with the public. I don’t know that they haven’t made head.

00:05:02
Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, that they’re will open about open exactly.

00:05:06
Speaker 2: So anyways, we do a piece on this. We did a piece on this. It’s great.

00:05:11
Speaker 1: Jordan’s like I said, researched it, hosted it, it was great.

00:05:17
Speaker 2: People were very enthusiastic about it.

00:05:19
Speaker 1: So we’ve were launching this series Blood Trails and doing a whole bunch of these stories about these like murders and events.

00:05:29
Speaker 2: That involve hunters, right, hunters and hunters, anglers, outdoorsmen yep.

00:05:34
Speaker 1: So it’s like it’s like these kind of crime stories that are very outdoor focused.

00:05:40
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, they’re they’re very outdoor focused. I really want to stick to that. You know, it’s hunters, anglers, campers, hikers, public land users, people who are in the out of doors doing the things that we all love to do, and something terrible happens and sometimes, uh, you know, the hunter is the victim. We do have a pretty serious story in this first season where the hunter is the perpetrator of the crime, and so it’s related to hunters and anglers in some way all these stories are and you know, I think that that gives us a perspective on these cases that you know, your run of the mill true crime podcast is not going to have.

00:06:25
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know a lot of times.

00:06:28
Speaker 1: My kids, like some of the my kids listen to my older one especially, he listens to some like crime stuff, and they’re just kind of working off Wikipedia pages, right, you know what I mean, Like they’re not doing And I tried to explain him all the time, like you realize these dudes like read a couple of books, right, and they’re just horking people’s material.

00:06:48
Speaker 2: Yep.

00:06:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, a lot of it, Like they’re not doing anything right. Yeah, and that is you know a lot of true crime podcasts, not all. Some of them do a really great job. There’s lots of original reporting, but a auto true crime podcasts the format is they read news articles, they read a book, they read Wikipedia, they explain to you what happened, and then usually there’s two people and they kind.

00:07:09
Speaker 2: Of react to that.

00:07:11
Speaker 3: This this series is not that I really wanted to make a point of talking with the people who were involved, whether that’s the family of the victim, you know, law enforcement who investigated the case outside people who have you know, professionals who have looked at the case. So what you’re getting adds to the story, right, It’s not just you know what you already know about the story. It’s it’s information that you didn’t know from the people who were involved. So, you know, I record the interviews and we put them together, just like in that first episode about the Turkey Hunter.

00:07:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, so how deep is the how deep is the well? Like when you start looking at when you go back and you have to explain how far back in time you went. Yeah, when you start looking like, how many cases like this, murder cases, disappearance cases involve the outdoor community, do you find that that it winds up being that it’s that it’s dozens that it’s hard to find ten.

00:08:16
Speaker 3: There are quite a few, you know, the the example of a hunter who’s killed in the woods, there’s going to be a fairly limited number of those. But if we’re talking about campers and hikers who disappear on public land, there are you know, potentially thousands.

00:08:36
Speaker 2: There was actually a bill.

00:08:39
Speaker 3: I believe it was called the Trace Act in the US Congress was introduced and basically the idea was to start recording and putting together a database of people who disappear on public land.

00:08:52
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

00:08:52
Speaker 3: And one of the statistics they cited was sixteen hundred people have disappeared, and I forget that the time for of that, but you know, nearly two thousand people have disappeared on public land in the last whatever ten or twenty years. And obviously the majority of those are not going to be like a criminal case, right, It’s not going to be like foul play won’t be suspected. It will be just someone you know, got lost and couldn’t find their way out. But you know a certain number of those there were other people who they were with. We have a case in this first season of a hunter who went out with his two friends and disappeared, and those two friends came back. And the question is you know, right, like so so there are there are those types of cases, and you know there are plenty I think for us to to cover.

00:09:43
Speaker 2: You know, watching you work on this and helping on a couple of them. A little bit. A thing that I kept thinking of is I used to where I grew up.

00:09:57
Speaker 1: I would I used to trap muskrats on a piece of the Manisteine National Forest I remember it was into I was trapping this marsh on the firearm opener.

00:10:11
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, and this guy there’s a missing guy.

00:10:16
Speaker 1: And eventually find him and he had shot himself leaning against the tree, shot himself in the head, leaning against.

00:10:22
Speaker 2: Tree, dering gunsies, yeah, okay. And where he was, I mean I had muskrat traps seventy five yards from there. Yeah, and I and I was like waiting. I was in high school.

00:10:36
Speaker 1: I was waiting for someone to come and put the screws to me a little bit. I had never heard a word, never heard a word, and I eventually started to I guess, no one’s gonna come talk to me.

00:10:50
Speaker 2: But I was like kind of paranoid. Yeah, yeah, that’s someone to come talk to you. But I’d have to explain how I like a shot. I don’t know.

00:10:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, don’t know anymore than you guys do. I mean, I got trapped strung all along that hole. He was like right up in the oaks, like come out of the cattails, and he was just sitting right up there. I didn’t know he was there. Yeah, But I just always like come. No one never came and asked me if I heard something, saw something did something.

00:11:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean maybe it was very clear from the scene, could have been it was it was a suicide.

00:11:20
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:11:21
Speaker 1: I talked to an investigator one time that did a guy killed himself at a campfire, and the investigator came in and he’s like, I looked and knew what happened. But of course I couldn’t take that mindset, right, So I initially, yeah, I’m like, oh, he shot himself, but don’t touch anything.

00:11:46
Speaker 2: Treat it like a crime scene.

00:11:48
Speaker 3: Yep.

00:11:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think until he got until they got to a point where like the obvious was true, but just ruling out the idea that it was that it was stage to look that.

00:11:58
Speaker 3: Way right, right, because that’s always possible, And that is one thing law enforcement, you know, says, is always assume it’s a homicide if someone has died, right, assuming it’s a homicide until you have evidence proving otherwise.

00:12:12
Speaker 1: Let’s talk about this Wisconsin. Let’s talk about this Wisconsin, this Wisconsin hunter and the Bear Boo Hills there. Yeah, the reason that one strikes me. Yeah, that story really strikes me. From the seventies, right, nineteen seventy seven, Yeah, Okay, I just knew all the place names. Yeah, right, because every year once or twice a year. Yeah, you know, a flying to Madison, see the Barboo Hills, right, go to my buddy dogs. My buddy dog tells me this that their thing, and so familiar with the roads, been on the roads.

00:12:46
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And so I don’t know. It just struck me because I was like, oh, should I know that spot? I know the spot? I know those places. Yeah.

00:12:55
Speaker 1: But talk about that guy a little bit, because here’s another one. Like dudes, they were well, they were very early bowhunters.

00:13:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, nineteen seventy seven.

00:13:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, like nineteen seventy eight bow hunters. Yeah, and so that paints a picture in your head immediately because bow hunting culture was very small.

00:13:13
Speaker 2: Yeah in seventy eight yep.

00:13:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this this happened again in nineteen seventy seven.

00:13:20
Speaker 2: I keep saying seventy eight. Sorry, seventy eight, Yeah, yes, seventy seven.

00:13:24
Speaker 3: You know in that that there was opening day of both season in Wisconsin. The guy’s name was Robert Christian. He went by Bob, and he had he had a plan with his friend Randy. He lived in Madison, Bob did. Randy lived up in Barriboo and so they were planning on hunting some land north of Barriboo on that Saturday, and so Bob took his mom’s car. He had a motorcycle that he usually drove, but it was in the shop for some reason.

00:13:52
Speaker 2: But he wouldn’t have taken it.

00:13:54
Speaker 1: I know that’s a part of it. But he wouldn’t have taken his motorbike out to go. I mean, I mean, I think he wouldn’t.

00:13:59
Speaker 2: Have liked hung his bowl over his back.

00:14:01
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, this is according This is according to his sister. His sister kind of who I spoke with, made a point of mentioning he had a motorbike. It was in the shop, and his his mom let him drive her brand new AMC Hornet.

00:14:16
Speaker 2: So maybe he would have taken that bike maybe.

00:14:18
Speaker 3: I mean, it seemed like something he drove around a lot. And this piece is interesting because it kind of speaks to Bob’s character that his mom he was eighteen, so, you know, not very old. His mom let him take her brand like this is a brand new car, right, she just bought it. And so he was. He was a good kid. He had just started at the University of Wisconsin Madison. He was going to be a computer science major. You know, good grades. You know, he had lots of friends.

00:14:49
Speaker 1: So he’s an early adopter on archery season, yeah, and he’s an early adopter on computer science.

00:14:54
Speaker 4: Yeah.

00:14:54
Speaker 3: He probably would have been a millionaire by now because he was. He was right there at the beginning. So he’s supposed to meet Randy at six o’clock at his house. They’re gonna spend the night and then get up early the next morning. Six o’clock rolls around, Bob hasn’t shown up. And like everyone I talked with about Bob really emphasized like this was unusual for him because again, he’s a good kid. He’s there on time. If he says he’s gonna be there, he’s not gonna, you know, make Randy’s mom wait to start dinner.

00:15:25
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:15:25
Speaker 1: One of his relatives said, if he says he’s gonna do something, yeah, exactly exactly. So they’re kind of immediately concerned. They don’t, you know, they don’t think like, oh, he’s been abducted, right, They their first thought is he’s been in some kind of car accident. And so so the Randy’s last name is Griffiths. So the Griffiths call the Christians and they kind of call back and forth, like where’s Bob.

00:15:51
Speaker 3: We don’t know where he went, and so they start calling like hospitals, they they do call law enforcement, I think, just to see if there’d been a road accident, you know, if he’d gotten into some kind of accident on the way, and they don’t. There’s there’s no sign of him. And so they spend the next day on Saturday, I think, like again calling around some of you know, Bob’s friends other family members, like has anyone seen him? Did he go somewhere else for some reason that that you know, he didn’t say he would, And still no sign of him. So on Sunday they go out to look for him. They’re just driving the roads and they find the car. They find Bob’s mom’s car. It’s parked up kind of on this like it’s the road’s name is Tower Road. I think there was like some kind of radio tower.

00:16:43
Speaker 2: It’s like up in.

00:16:45
Speaker 3: A very rural kind of remote area, just like a side road up there, and the car doesn’t have any wheels or tires. It’s just like sitting on the ground for some reason. Bob’s his his hunting stuff is gone. His letterman jacket is in the car. And then I think Bob’s mom was a nurse, and so her nursing kit is in the car.

00:17:12
Speaker 2: Kid just bought some swish or sweets.

00:17:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, that’s right. So so we swished.

00:17:16
Speaker 2: Sweets in the car. I don’t that really put me in a certain place in time? Yeah?

00:17:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, because he went got twenty five bucks from the bank and then went and bought swish or sweets.

00:17:26
Speaker 2: It was like, dude, like, I know this guy.

00:17:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, from that, you know his his sister said he loved hanging out with his friends, smoking, you know, playing cards, and so yeah, so that’s that’s a we know that. The last thing we know that he did was he made two stops in Madison. One was at the bank, the other was at a convenience store, and from there he drove up and we don’t know what happened after that.

00:17:54
Speaker 2: And so there’s so many details to it, but like.

00:17:57
Speaker 3: There’s there’s a lot, there’s a lot, you know, but the kind of bottom line is, to this day, we don’t know what happened to him.

00:18:05
Speaker 2: There are theories, but in none of that archery equipment, none of that stuff ever.

00:18:10
Speaker 3: Ever turned up. Yeah, none of it ever turned up. A really important piece of this is that the area his car was found was an area that he grew up hunting in, so it wasn’t and that’s kind of why they were up there looking because they thought, well, maybe he went up here right for some reason. Even though it wasn’t on the way to Randy’s house. It was a detour that would have made him late, but he was familiar with that area. His sister said where the car was found was not where they usually parked in that area, So it was kind of odd that he would have parked up that little side road. But you wonder maybe he just went up to do some scouting, took his bow, went in the woods. They conducted obviously an extensive search of the area. They brought in you know, dogs, they brought in a helic. They didn’t have drones at the time, but you know, they did do aerial search. The detective who’s in charge of this this investigation told me that the family, you know, still goes up there right and like looks around. Maybe he we just never found him. Maybe he had some kind of medical emergency and we just never found him in these woods. But the detective I talked with he didn’t because I sort of asked him, like, could he have just like gotten hurt or lost in the woods, and he doesn’t. He doesn’t think that’s likely. He thinks they would have found him. But it is a weird piece that his hunting stuff, his bow was not in the car, right, because if he’d been abducted, why would the abductor take his bow? Right, That’s kind of a weird thing to do.

00:19:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, there’s there’s.

00:19:46
Speaker 4: There’s also that whole wrinkle about that nun who sees I don’t know how much you want to like give away on the podcast, but there’s so many like wrinkles to it that are so interesting.

00:19:54
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:19:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, So so a few days into the investigation, you’re.

00:20:02
Speaker 2: Taking the bait on that.

00:20:03
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you gotta Phil brings up the nun. You gotta talk about the nun.

00:20:08
Speaker 2: Film might have a little I don’t know, little thing you’re saying.

00:20:14
Speaker 1: I’m a part of this case, Steve, although I thought maybe maybe he’s interested nuns.

00:20:18
Speaker 2: I gave you all the clues.

00:20:21
Speaker 3: So they they found They find out that just about a mile down the road from where Bob’s car was found, a nun there was there was a convent. Now it’s like a retreat center, but at the time it was it was a convent.

00:20:34
Speaker 2: A mile from the car was about a mile yep.

00:20:36
Speaker 3: Just down the road. And they realized that that there was a nun who lived in a cabin and she’d been gone for a few days. She came back to her house and realized someone had been living in her house. They hadn’t like ransacked it and stolen stuff. It seemed like they’d actually been like living in her cabin.

00:20:54
Speaker 2: And so this.

00:20:54
Speaker 3: Obviously freaks her out. She calls her friend, whose name is Mary, to drive over and just like be with her because she doesn’t know if whoever this is gonna come back, right he wasn’t there at the time, And so Mary drives over, and when she pulls up into this driveway, she sees a car that’s running but in the driveway, and she makes a note which is like pretty incredible. She makes a note of the license plate number. She writes it down, and she walks up to this car and the driver rolls down the window and he says, either I’m looking for my friend or at other times she said he said I’m looking for my friend Bob, and her description of him matches Bob. She said he was a young guy, brown hair, glasses. But then later, according to the reports, she saw a picture of Bob and was like, ah, maybe it wasn’t him. I don’t know, So that’s also a little bit uncuo. So so she wrote down the license plate number, which is how we know that was Bob’s car. So, whoever, whoever was driving it, whether it was Bob or someone else, it was Bob’s car. And this was I think like nine nine or maybe like nine pm, ten pm at nights. This was at night after you know, people had been worried about him. This was that Friday night for its got stripped. Yeah, this was that Friday night. And so and so Mary said that the car drove back down the driveway and then turned away from where the car was eventually found. So for some reason it turned the opposite direction and then eventually made its way back to where it was found, after which time the wheels and tires were stripped for some reason. Those hub caps were eventually found at a rock quarry, which is another piece of this, but it’s just a really creepy interaction. Man, right, and and Amy, Bob’s sister, thinks that it’s possible, and I think Randy had said this as well, who I also spoke with. They think it’s possible that Bob that someone else was in the car. It was dark, and so Mary doesn’t know whether anyone else was in the car. They think someone else could have been in the car, maybe holding Bob at gunpoint, and he was kind of trying to drop a hint, like I’m looking for my friend Bob. He didn’t want to say anything that would like upset this person. But she thinks maybe he was trying to send a message.

00:23:35
Speaker 2: And you know, we.

00:23:37
Speaker 3: Don’t know whether that person who was with Bob maybe could have been the same person who had been staying in the nun’s house. We don’t know. We don’t even know that those two things are connected. Yeah, And part of the problem it’s possible. But part of the problem it was never like investigated super closely, at least right away, is because there’s a county line that separates where Bob’s car was found from the nuns house.

00:24:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, because well because if he was in there, if he was in there for ten minutes, well they wouldn’t have known it, they wouldn’t have done it. At the time, if he was in there for ten minutes.

00:24:10
Speaker 3: There’s hair, there’s oh yeah, right, but.

00:24:13
Speaker 2: At that time they wouldn’t have yeah. Yeah.

00:24:15
Speaker 3: So at the time, you know, the one law enforcement the you know, the county sheriff investigated Bob’s car and Bob’s disappearance, but then across the county line, another sheriff’s department was investigating the nuns you know, break in, and they didn’t think they were related because according to Amy, those two departments just didn’t like interact, didn’t like each other, didn’t communicate well, and so like all the evidence was cleaned up from the nuns house because they just thought someone broke in, not a big deal though they didn’t connect it. And you know, who knows if that evidence would have been preserved. Now we have that ability to analyze DNA, we could have maybe made some headway there, but it just doesn’t exist. The evidence isn’t there.

00:25:03
Speaker 1: Years ago, we did an episode, like there’s parts of the story that remind me of this. We did an episode with Pat Dirkin, and there was a story of a couple guys that went missing, a couple of ice fishermen that went missing for many, many years and there’s just little snippets of what they had done, what might have happened to them.

00:25:35
Speaker 2: They vanished a winter night.

00:25:39
Speaker 1: Some of the people felt that maybe they there was even this idea merged that they ran off and started new lives somewhere. The last sighting of them, which seemed like it would have been them, is they had gone to a guy that sold live bait and woke them up like one or two in the morning to buy minnows.

00:26:00
Speaker 2: Yeah. They’re dedicated, Yeah, dedicated.

00:26:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, And there was questions about who was in the car, what they had done that night, what their relationship was like. But anyways, all these years later, a dude, a Walleye fishermen, a guy that was really interested in side.

00:26:19
Speaker 2: Scan so and iron stuff. You know.

00:26:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, he went he’s out puttsing around one time and uh, finds a car, Yeah, dives down, pulls the license plate. Dudes are still sitting in the car, pulls the license plate and knows the car the whole time.

00:26:36
Speaker 2: It was just right there.

00:26:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, all this like mystery and what happened is just sitting at the bottle of lake.

00:26:42
Speaker 3: Whenever anyone goes missing, there are always a million theories and the same thing.

00:26:49
Speaker 1: Well, did it point out they drove out just to make for non nice fishermen for Southerners, they bought bait and drove out on the ice.

00:27:00
Speaker 2: Just sunk.

00:27:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, car went through the ice, probably refroze, snowed, whatever. Just yeah, thirty years what are what happen of those guys?

00:27:08
Speaker 3: I can’t imagine, But yeah, one of the theories with Bob is that he ran off for.

00:27:14
Speaker 1: It’s always a thing, yep, when we you know, we did a we did one about a guy that in one of our Campfire Stories volumes, we had one about a guy was hunting elk. No it was it was a mountain goat hunter. Either way, he finds a body, yeah, that have been missing for forever, and that family, the family the missing man, they do the same thing always in the back of your head when someone like goes missing.

00:27:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, there’s primary the primary thing.

00:27:48
Speaker 1: Is like that they’re dead, But in the back of your head is that they ran off and started a new life. And so with this family that I think for fifty years, their father had been missing. Yeah, and there was a did he maybe run off in start a new life and meanwhile he was right where everybody knew he’d gone hunting. Yeah, but they searched and searched and searched and searched, and it seems he had pulled.

00:28:15
Speaker 2: A boulder over on himself.

00:28:16
Speaker 3: Oh man, he.

00:28:17
Speaker 1: Was going through he’s going through a rocky area and it seems like grab the wrong boulder at the wrong time.

00:28:23
Speaker 2: And just yeah, it’s so like gone. Yeah, it’s hundreds of people searching in the right spot.

00:28:30
Speaker 3: Yep, never found him. Yeah, yeah, And it’s it’s so hard for the families, you know, speaking with the people who are still here, they just struggle so much, right, And and like like with with you know, Bob’s case, speaking with his sister, you know, she she doesn’t she isn’t holding out hope that he’s still alive somewhere sure, right, And the same thing. There’s another case of a hunter who went missing in nineteen seventy five up in Main that we’re going to cover, same thing with his wife, Like she knows he’s not alive, but they just want that closure, yeah, you know, and that’s really important to them. So they’re still and that’s why they talk to me, that’s why they keep you know, they want people to know about the case. So they can figure it out, figure out what happened.

00:29:20
Speaker 1: Let’s jump to another one. This is one both you and I worked on together a little bit where I provide a little assistance here and there on it.

00:29:33
Speaker 2: The case of a.

00:29:36
Speaker 1: Family right here in right here, in our area, right here in Galton Valley in Montana, back in nineteen ninety six, a young girl, Danielle hutt. This gets confusing because there’s names that are very similar. How does her family pronounce that last name?

00:29:57
Speaker 2: Pouchins? Does go?

00:29:58
Speaker 3: Yep, Puchins.

00:30:00
Speaker 2: There’s a victim, Daniel Houchens.

00:30:02
Speaker 1: Okay, don’t get confused, because then we have a murderer named Paul Hutchinson. But a victim Daniel Houchins goes to a river access site. So in Montana you have a lot of you have a lot of state river access sites. We have the state has a phenomenal stream access law where as long as you can legally get into a river, you can then travel blow high watermark. And so these state access sites are real focal points of activity because it gives you a legal access into a river and then you can go up and down the river. In nineteen ninety six, this this young woman, she was eighteen fifteen.

00:30:43
Speaker 2: Oh geez, yeah, sorry, I forget that.

00:30:45
Speaker 1: This young woman who’s fifteen, lives down the road from a river access site, goes down to the river access site after having a minor argument with her with her mother, I believe. Yeah, yeah, it doesn’t come home.

00:31:05
Speaker 5: Uh.

00:31:06
Speaker 1: The eventually search and they find her body. She had been raped, she had drowned, or Ben drowned in mark right.

00:31:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, Ben drowned.

00:31:25
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:31:25
Speaker 1: Well I’m when I’m when I say, when I point this out, this discrepancy is it was not immediately openly treated as a murder.

00:31:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, it It was a mess. The sheriff at the time, According to the sister of the victim, Stephanie, who was very kind to speak with me, She says, the sheriff at the time told the family it’s possible that Danny could have drowned accidentally.

00:31:57
Speaker 2: So but got raped and then Quinn drowned in shallow muck.

00:32:03
Speaker 3: Well, he didn’t tell the family. He didn’t tell the family allegedly that she had been raped. That was news to the family when this came out more recently.

00:32:12
Speaker 1: But yeah, but she was found with her with her bra up, her underwear down, yep, Yeah, with biological material from someone else.

00:32:25
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, fifteen years of age. Yeah.

00:32:29
Speaker 3: No, they knew, they knew she had been raped. And and to to kind of give the sheriff credit, he told the media like just about a year after this happened, he said, we’ve always treated this as a homicidek So, so he acknowledged publicly that they were treating this case as a homicide. The problem came because the coroner when he listed the like the manner of death or like the reason for death, he listed it rather than homicide. He listed it as undetermined. And you know, we know now based on speaking with the kind of the most recent investigator on this case and the case file, it was pretty clear that she had been that it was a homicide. She had bruising on the back of her neck, her lungs were they had mud in them, right, so she’d been held underwater. There was obviously this horrible struggle, and so but the family’s kind of kept in the dark about this, and the sheriff says he never lied to the family, but obviously he didn’t tell the family everything, which is pretty standard practice. You know, even the family can’t have access to all the information because investigators are concerned that they’ll speak to the media or that things will get out and it will compromise the investigation.

00:33:53
Speaker 1: So I’m not I have zero, Like, I don’t know anything about law enforcement. That feels just sitting here, Yeah, having a daughter, Yeah, that feels like way off to me.

00:34:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it feels way off to me.

00:34:11
Speaker 3: Yeah. And you know, those decisions were made back in ninety six. We don’t know exactly why.

00:34:17
Speaker 1: But put yourself, put yourself in that situation. Oh yeah, you have kids, Yeah, when your kids killed, and then years later you’re like, oh mat you uh, you didn’t tell me what happened to my daughter.

00:34:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, you kept parts of what happened to my kid for me.

00:34:33
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:34:34
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it’s it’s like I wasn’t allowed to know. Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s tough.

00:34:42
Speaker 3: And you know, the reason that the family found out was because Stephanie, her sister in twenty nineteen, really started her for twenty years later. Yeah, over twenty years later, but she applied. In Montana, they have a law that allows the victims family, allows the victim’s family to have access to the case file. You have to there’s a process, there’s a procedure I think a judge has to like grant access. But Stephanie worked through that process with the help of the Gallatin County Sheriff’s office and the county attorney, I believe, so she was finally able to see that whole case file, which is obviously a horrible experience to have to look is that crime scene photos? Everything’s in there, man. But but you know, eventually the family was given access to all the information. But it took it took a long time.

00:35:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, sitting down here, the series is incredible. I want people to listen to the series. All the episodes are incredible. I don’t want to we’re kind of talking high level impressions of some of this stuff. I just want to skip ahead for people. But when you listen, you’ll understand how they eventually determined to suspect.

00:36:07
Speaker 2: Thirty years after the fact. Yeah, it’s incredible.

00:36:10
Speaker 3: It’s a great story.

00:36:11
Speaker 2: Yea. Yeah, it’s a determined suspect.

00:36:14
Speaker 1: Turns out this guy the murderer.

00:36:21
Speaker 2: Hiding in plain sight. Man. Yep. He he uh doesn’t go far, stay stays local yep.

00:36:32
Speaker 3: Yep.

00:36:32
Speaker 1: Becomes a fisheries biologist, yeah, with the BLN. Yeah, becomes a BLM fisheries biologist. He’s real active on like hunt talk and active on forums.

00:36:43
Speaker 3: Yep.

00:36:44
Speaker 1: He kind of runs this little program where he does these somewhat formalized hunt swaps yep, where he kind of does this thing like to guys like, hey, if you want to come hunt Montana, like, I’ll line you out on spots and then in exchange, you’ll kind of line.

00:37:04
Speaker 2: Me out on how to hunt your area.

00:37:08
Speaker 1: Raises a family, two kids, hunts turkeys. Here’s kind of a weird one winds up. I think by his own count hunts turkeys in twenty five states in the years following this. So this guy is all over the place. This guy is all over the country hanging out in rural, secluded areas. It’s insane what happens. But these investigators come and they don’t want it. It’s an old, old case and they don’t want to come in and read him as his rights right to fear that he’s just going to shut up, right.

00:38:00
Speaker 2: It’s a tough case. It’s thirty years old.

00:38:02
Speaker 3: Yep, and initially initially not listed as a homicide. That was officially changed at some point, but for twenty years not listed as a homicide. So you know, a defense attorney is going to really hammer that, so they had to be very careful with how they approached it.

00:38:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have this footage and this audio that that Jordan uses. A couple of investigators come with a hidden camera.

00:38:33
Speaker 3: I don’t know that it was hidden, but you know, just.

00:38:36
Speaker 2: Sure seems like it. It’s not set up on a tripod.

00:38:39
Speaker 3: No, I think it was like a I think it was like a body cam. That’s what I’ve assumed. It was like a body cam. And so it’s not like it’s not like it was hidden exactly. But it wasn’t like they said, we want to interview you for some documentary, right, it was just law enforcement.

00:38:54
Speaker 2: Yeah. I only just for clarity.

00:38:56
Speaker 1: I only said that because I realized it was like on a person when or it was somehow moving around.

00:39:01
Speaker 2: So yeah, I shouldn’t say hidden.

00:39:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, they film an interview and and and Jordan, if you could explain, like, how do they.

00:39:11
Speaker 2: Explain the pretext of the interview? Sure?

00:39:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the thinking behind it in the pretext of of of how they how they approach him to begin asking about this.

00:39:22
Speaker 3: Day, right, So, so like you said, they’re they’re worried he’s going to lawyer up, and so they determine that it’s legal for them to conduct an interview with him as long as it’s a public place and he’s always free to go. So they approach him in the parking lot of the BLM office in Dylan, you know, they walk up to him, they say, hey, you know, we’re we’re looking into cases of women who have been killed along rivers in Montana. And they say, as a fisheries biologist who’s always on the rivers, we’re hoping that you can provide it’s an insight into some.

00:40:01
Speaker 2: Of these cases.

00:40:02
Speaker 3: So they don’t just talk about Danny’s case. They have I think four cases.

00:40:08
Speaker 1: That was one of the most sickening things about it, yeah, is they’re like, here’s a woman from a river in Livingston. Yeah, here’s a woman from a river. Here, here’s a woman from a river here.

00:40:19
Speaker 2: Was like, how many of these people are right? Right? Yeah?

00:40:22
Speaker 3: So they they did, unfortunately, have some you know, other cases that they could bring up. And I’ve looked into a few of those others and they weren’t all you know, under suspicious circumstances necessarily, but there are real cases. They didn’t just make them up. They are real cases, and.

00:40:41
Speaker 2: I figured they had to have been.

00:40:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think that, like you said, like legally, I think that if you came with a completely phony if you if you came in with like completely phony information, I imagined it would somehow tarnish what you’re doing.

00:40:58
Speaker 3: It might I think, you know, they want it to be as realistic as possible to not tip Paul off that this is some like you know, sting operation. So I’m sure they were worried that if they tried to use fake cases that he would become suspicious. Right if for whatever reason he knew it was fake, he could figure it out. So they run through these cases. They say, you know, they have pictures of each of the victims. They put them in front of Paul. They say, have you heard of this person? You know she was killed on such and such river. Do you know anyone who might be able to help us, Any fishing guides, you know, guys who own tackle shops, like anyone we can talk to you about these. They do this one at a time, and then the last one is is Danny, and they they they pushed the picture in front of him and he’d you know, this is not like an explosive moment where he just like breaks down, right, But you can tell he’s uncomfortable, like he doesn’t know exactly whether to like look the picture or like look back and be kind of nonchalant about it.

00:41:59
Speaker 1: He goes into a mega chill affectation.

00:42:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, that’s kind of how it came.

00:42:05
Speaker 1: To doing a very dramatic he’s kicking back, he’s got his arms behind his head. Yeah, he gets really reclined.

00:42:14
Speaker 2: Yep. He tries to like go into this real like breezy.

00:42:19
Speaker 3: He keeps asking what was her name?

00:42:21
Speaker 2: Again?

00:42:22
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, what was her name? Danielle?

00:42:25
Speaker 2: That’s a good one. I got no idea, boy, I don’t know. Yeah, he has to be excused for a minute.

00:42:30
Speaker 3: He does multiple times. Yeah, throughout throughout the interview. I think it’s three or four times he has to be excused. He says that one of his texts is texting him, one of his you know, subordinates is texting him and has a problem with something.

00:42:44
Speaker 2: That’s the pretext he uses.

00:42:45
Speaker 3: I don’t know if that was true or not, but he does leave multiple times. Oh yeah, it’s it’s tough to watch. I mean, it really is just knowing what what happened, and and the investigators are not like they they play it pretty cool, but they definitely are there to get information, right, They’re there to ask him, where were you in nineteen ninety six? We are you familiar with this fishing access? Were you trapping in that area? Were you fishing in that area? And so that’s really what they’re there for. They want him on tape admitting to being in the area around that time. And you know, again he plays it pretty cool, like he keeps asking what year again, I don’t know. It’s either I was either there in ninety five or ninety six. I can’t you know. So he kind of dissembles a little bit, but again, like plays it fairly cool, considering sure what they’re asking, you know, and considering this may be the first time he’s ever been approached or asked about this.

00:43:51
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, to be fair, man, like, no, when you watch it, knowing what you know, yeah, you see that like he’s.

00:44:01
Speaker 1: Doing an overblown relaxed right because knowing what you know. But but to be fair, it wasn’t. He didn’t there was no like uh, infallible tell right, But knowing what you know, there’s like, buddy, there’s no way you’re relaxed right now, No way, but you’re doing a way that you’re kicked back and chatty. Yeah, yeah, trying to be helpful, but I don’t know that’s his attitude exactly.

00:44:28
Speaker 2: I’d love to help, but I probably I don’t know. I’m just sound just chilled out down here at the end of the table. Yeah.

00:44:32
Speaker 3: One of the one of the kind of unbelievable things he says is like, I don’t I don’t know, like I’ve never fished these rivers like I just fished, you know, the little streams are like I don’t know any fishing guides who can help you. I don’t know anyone who can help It’s like you’re a fishery biologist who is Like he seemed to be primarily into hunting, but of course, you know, I’m sure he also did fishing. He had a fishing boat, like I’m sure he did some fishing. And just like the idea that he didn’t know any anyone who could help them is kind of unbelievable.

00:45:06
Speaker 2: You know.

00:45:07
Speaker 1: The thing to surprise me during during as you were working on this, and I’m curious to see if you if you ran into this in other cases too, people that were close. There were a lot of people that were close to him, were not a lot There was people that were close to him that that don’t want the story talked about. They don’t want the story out there out of concern for the murderer’s family. They just wanted to go away, right, Yeah, Which you look at me like, I I I see why you think that, But I don’t think that. I don’t feel that way, Like I don’t feel that it’s taboo. Yeah, I don’t feel that it’s taboo to talk about something like this.

00:45:55
Speaker 5: No.

00:45:56
Speaker 2: Uh, but I see why you feel that way.

00:45:58
Speaker 1: But did you find that in other instances did you did you find that people are like, I don’t let’s just leave it be, let’s just not talk about it, let’s let it die down.

00:46:08
Speaker 2: Why do we got to relive this?

00:46:10
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, certainly with the cases that are that there’s been some type of resolution too, because not all of the cases we cover, our cold cases that haven’t been solved. Some of them have been solved, you know, to one degree of like certainty or another. And on those cases, I definitely ran into this. People they don’t they don’t want to talk about it, they don’t want it to be rehashed, which I do understand. I think I think that, you know, this is a matter of public interest. These stories, whether it’s it’s you know, the job of law enforcement, or whether the stories have some lesson for you know, hunters, I think they are a matter of public interest, and so we should cover them, especially if if we’re adding something new to these stories. But I certainly ran into that and people said, I don’t want to talk to you.

00:47:09
Speaker 2: I don’t want to rehash this. Did that you did that? Sometimes come from the victims family.

00:47:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, there there there were times.

00:47:20
Speaker 2: I would be more simple, I would be sympathetic to it. I’m coming from the victim side.

00:47:25
Speaker 1: It’s hard for me to be sympathetic to it coming from the murderer’s perspective, right right, And and I think, like, yeah, I bet you want this to go away, right right.

00:47:36
Speaker 2: I understand that, of course, yeah, I do.

00:47:39
Speaker 3: And I think it’s I think it’s a question of culpability, right Like Paul’s family didn’t do what he did, and so in a sense, they are victims. But you know, again, this is a this is a this is a big story, especially in this area. And I think that we have an obligation to cover it as truthfully as we can with you know, whoever will talk to us. And you know, I, like you say, I feel sympathy with all of these cases, and that’s one thing I really wanted to be sure that never got lost. I think with a lot of true crime, like the genre, a lot of people approach it as like a puzzle to be solved. And that makes sense. It’s an investigation, there’s evidence, there’s clues. But because the way we reported this, we talked with the people involved, we talked with the victims’ families. I always want to center the fact that they are real people involved, Right, These are real humans who have gone through the worst imaginable pain, and I’m asking them to talk about it, right, And so I always feel sympathy and I try to reflect that in the way that we tell these stories.

00:49:00
Speaker 2: Know, I try to to.

00:49:03
Speaker 3: Really get into who the victim was as a person, to talk with their family and friends, like what were they like, what was their character? What are they like to do? Because I think that’s really important and it reminds the audience like this is not just like a puzzle to be solved, This is a real person, and I just think that’s really important with this genre, especially of true crime.

00:49:24
Speaker 2: Tell me about the Terry Brisk murder. The Terry Brisk murder, so cause here we’re jumping up the twenty sixteen.

00:49:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a bit more recent. So Terry Brisk was he was hunting white tail. It was the third day of rifle season in Minnesota. He’s from Little Falls, which is in central Minnesota. It’s a pretty rural community, but he’d lived there his whole life. So he went out on a Monday. He’d taken off that day of work. He went out on a Monday to go check his stands. I got the sense it wasn’t like a serious hunt. He had about one hundred and twenty acre property that it was like family land that he hunted, and he was just gonna go out check his stands, like maybe he ran into it, you know, maybe he runs into a deer, maybe he doesn’t, but he’s just gonna go out there.

00:50:14
Speaker 2: So he’s out there.

00:50:16
Speaker 3: His son Jonathan comes home from school and immediately wants to go out hunting. He knows his dad is out on that property, and so he goes out there. He finds a stand. I want to say it was a ground blind, but I can’t remember that detail. But he’s texting his dad like, Hey, I’m out here, where are you? And he can hear a cell phone like dinging, so he knows like he’s close, but he he doesn’t like he keeps hearing the dinging, so so Terry his dad doesn’t silence his phone, and so he’s like, that’s just strange. And so he gets out of the blind. He walks not a very long distance because he can hear the cell phone, and he finds his dad. He’s lying on the grounds. He’s been shot, and so you know, the investigation kind of the deputies arrive, they bring in some state law enforcement as well. They investigate the crime scene, and one of the weird things they notice is that he’s there’s no gun, right, And they assume a hunter is going to go out on his property during deer season, he’s going to have a gun with him, right, because like the surest way of seeing a deer right is like to not have your gun with him.

00:51:31
Speaker 2: And if you just check him, if you just even if you’re.

00:51:33
Speaker 3: Just checking, yep, even if you’re just checking. So they so they look for the gun. They can’t find it. The family tells them that it was probably a thirty thirty Winchester lever action that he liked to hunt hunt with. They can’t find it, can’t find it. About a year later, they go back out because what what the the sheriff who spoke with me said is, at the time they were looking, there was a really thick, you know, cover of leaves on the ground, hm, and so they were concerned maybe it was hidden somewhere. And so sure enough, the next spring, when that leaf cover has decomposed a bit, they go out again and they find the gun. And that’s when they confirm that the gun that killed him was his own gun. But they also know, based on you know, the crime scene, that it wasn’t a suicide. They’re confident that he was killed with his own gun by someone else at close range. So the sheriff says, it’s likely that this person spoke with Terry. Certainly they interacted in some way, and somehow this person got Terry’s gun and shot him, and they they haven’t been able to figure out who did it, or at least they haven’t been able to gather enough evidence to figure out who did it. And that’s kind of where the case has been.

00:52:56
Speaker 2: How old was the kid.

00:52:59
Speaker 3: He was? I think he was fifteen at the time. Yeah, in twenty sixteen. So Terry was married and had four kids, and Jonathan was the oldest.

00:53:09
Speaker 2: How far away was the gun.

00:53:11
Speaker 3: That’s undisclosed? I asked the sheriff. He doesn’t want to say where it was found. He said, I think the words he used were nowhere near the crime scene. Wow, So yeah, nowhere near the crime scene. One of the things that was mentioned potentially is that it was on a different property. But the way it was described to me, it’s not like it was in someone’s shed, right and they found it there.

00:53:40
Speaker 2: It was in the woods somewhere. Thing doesn’t make a ton of sense. If it’s far away, what do.

00:53:45
Speaker 1: You mean if it’s way far away, they’re gonna wait for the leaves to settle down from rain and decomposition and then go look way far away.

00:53:55
Speaker 3: I mean, I don’t know exactly how they conducted the search. I assume some kind of grid search, and there’s a lot of like, there’s a lot of room in nowhere near right. It wasn’t next to the body. It could have been twenty five yards away. It could have been.

00:54:10
Speaker 1: It’s only one hundred and twenty acres on and twenty acres, so you could have been five hundred yards away and not in the yep.

00:54:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that is one of the things that’s so tough about, like off property.

00:54:18
Speaker 4: Yeah.

00:54:19
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:54:19
Speaker 3: A lot of these cases, like the investigators don’t know when to stop right in their search for clues for evidence because they don’t know how big the crime scene is. And so that was a challenging part of this.

00:54:32
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, they apparently never disclosed where he was shot.

00:54:36
Speaker 3: Like which part of his body. No, they never have.

00:54:38
Speaker 1: I asked that too, Yeah, and like that’s like, can you can you explain why they withhold those little details because we talk about that, Yeah, like you talk about that in the original in the original Blood Trails with the turkey hunter that’s found dead out in the woods.

00:54:52
Speaker 2: Yep.

00:54:53
Speaker 1: Is they view it like they it’s a tool, Yeah, to no detail that no one else knows, well someone.

00:55:02
Speaker 3: Else knows right exactly, and and that’s how they use it. So when when I talked with Brent, the example he gave was if if we say we know what the murder weapon was, the murderer will then go throw that gun in the river, right. So that’s one example of something.

00:55:23
Speaker 2: I think. I think.

00:55:28
Speaker 3: There is definitely validity in wanting to keep information close to the vest because they can use it, whether that’s in an interrogation, right, They they can better figure out if someone’s lying or telling the truth if they, you know, haven’t released a lot of details. Right, So if they know if if this person they’re interviewing somehow mentions or let slip a detail that they haven’t released to the public, Well, that’s a big deal, right, And so they.

00:55:57
Speaker 1: The thing that only you know, and they interviewing some guy and he knows, and he just happens to throw out, yeah, some weird remark.

00:56:04
Speaker 2: And you’re like, he wouldn’t know that exactly. He never told me, boy that right, right exactly.

00:56:09
Speaker 3: So So those, especially with the crime scene, those details are often not disclosed, and I totally get it. Sometimes I wonder whether whether investigators are being a little too cautious. And that’s just from my perspective as someone who’s just trying to get as much information as possible. So, you know, it’s frustrating for me, it’s frustrating for family, can be frustrating for the public. But they do have reasons for it?

00:56:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me about the Ludger h Bellinger.

00:56:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, it’s a Luger Blander, Lugr Bland, Ludia Blanger. I got that wrong as well until someone corrected me. So this is another disappearance, but it’s it’s.

00:56:51
Speaker 1: Also nineteen seventy like kind of like a right around when I was born. Things were, things were spicy in the words man.

00:56:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, so this is nineteen seventy five.

00:57:01
Speaker 3: So the fiftieth anniversary of this is actually coming up here pretty soon. So this is also a disappearance, but it’s a lot different than the Bob Christian disappearance because we have a lot more information about who did it. It’s just we don’t they were never convicted and we don’t know what they did with Lujer.

00:57:23
Speaker 2: So he was a hundred. This is the Big Woods Man Maine exactly.

00:57:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, in Maine, the Big Woods Washington, Maine, which is in the eastern portion of the state, not too far from the coast. Luja went hunting with his wife Linda and his brother John. They went out kind of before work. Linda and John both had to work later in the day. Luja was kind of between jobs. I think, But they went out early in the morning to see if they could find any deer tracks and just to sit and wait and you know, see if anything showed up. They didn’t find anything, so so Linda and John went back because they had to go to work. Lujar said, I’ll, you know, I want to hunt for a little while longer and then I’ll come back home. At the time, Lujer well still but Luji and Linda had three young daughters at the time, so they had three kids. They were fairly newly married but and fairly young. But but they had three kids.

00:58:16
Speaker 5: Uh.

00:58:16
Speaker 3: So Lujer again doesn’t come home, and he’s supposed to drive Linda to work, and so the way she describes it is she was kind of mad at him.

00:58:26
Speaker 2: At first.

00:58:26
Speaker 3: She assumes he’s just like out hunting and forgot right. But you know, as the hours stick by and he still hasn’t come home, she starts to become really concerned. So she calls the main game wardens and they come out to two game wardens come out and start to look for him. They searched all night, no sign of him, and they consider calling like a larger search party, but it was pretty cold and they figured that would take too long. They really wanted to find him then, because he’d been out all night at that point, so so they finally they talked to a neighbor who says he saw Ludra go into the woods at this point. And the neighbor is a big hunter and a trapper, and so the neighbor says, if Lujra went in that way, I bet he went to this spot in the woods where they’re often deer. And so sure enough, they go to that spot, they find his tracks. They figure out that he’d shot a buck and he dragged it out to a road. One of the really cool things about this story is it’s a really great example of good police work, of good detective work. The game wardens were able to really read the signs in the snow because it had it had snowed and then gotten warm and it kind of melted and then it froze again, and then like a cold snow had come on top of that. So they were able to kind of figure out a timeline based on like is the track in yeah, is the track in the slushy like frozen stuff, or is it you know, in the top, And so they do a great job tracking Lujra to this road. They figure out that a car had driven up and picked Lujra up and they put the deer in the trunk. And one of the things they notice is that Lujra had left his gun leaning against a tree, and they figure out that one of the other guys in the car was the one who got out of the car and went over and picked up Luger’s gun and brought it back to the car. And they just think that’s kind of strange, like wouldn’t Lujr. Be the one to get out and go get his gun, And so that sort of tips them off. They also another great piece of detective work. They find a receipt in the snow for a local garage like a like an autobody shop, and it has like the names of the guys who are driving the car, and so they immediately go to the autobody shop and they talk to that Apparently, you know, two guys had come in potentially drunk, potentially you know, on drugs, just like acting crazy. They’d asked for their car to be fixed something was wrong with the radiator, and then they left and between them leaving, they leave the autobody shop pick up Luger, something happens, and then they go back to the autobody shop later. So that’s another piece where they’re able to kind of figure out a timeline. And so they they go to talk to these guys and they’ve never been named. The suspects have never been named. I refer to them as Suspect A and Suspect B because again, like they’ve never been officially named as suspects, and I actually don’t know. Because so another part of this story, the the game warns who investigated this have both passed. They both died, but an author, a journalist named Darren Worcester, published a book based on the accounts of a bunch of different main game wardens. His father in law was a game warden, and so you know, he compiled all of these stories from these game boardens he’d spoken to, one of which was Lusier’s disappearance, was Ludri’s story, And so that’s really how we know a lot of these details is because he spoke with those wardens before they died. And so I was able to interview Darren, who again very kindly sat down and talked with me for a long time about this case. And so that’s how we know a lot of the details because they were never released to the public. I contacted, you know, the main state police who are right now like in charge of the investigation, and they declined to be interviewed.

01:02:50
Speaker 1: What are these two guys, Like, what do these two guys say for themselves?

01:02:55
Speaker 3: Well, one of them, one of them died in a kind of crazy circumstance. The other one is still alive, and according to Linda, who I spoke with, you know, maintains his innocence.

01:03:10
Speaker 2: But what do they say, where do they say Lujer in the buck got out of the car.

01:03:18
Speaker 3: They I don’t know that they ever really got that far in the investigation. What I mean is they never accused them and like tried to prosecute them, so they never actually like got them in a court and said, you know, what’s going on? So they they like they said, they saw Lujer, but we didn’t pick him up, right, someone else must have picked him up. And that’s kind of the story that that they maintain, even though it’s very you.

01:03:49
Speaker 1: Know, there were receipts in the snow, well their receipt is so they were there, right, they say, oh, yeah, we were there, we.

01:03:54
Speaker 3: Saw him, but we didn’t pick him up, We didn’t do anything to him. We don’t know what happened to him. And that’s sort of the story that they’ve maintained over these years. The first, the one suspect. They’re both.

01:04:12
Speaker 2: Characters, you might say, but the.

01:04:14
Speaker 3: One died because he blew up his own house in an apparent attempt either at insurance fraud or to kill his wife.

01:04:25
Speaker 2: He filled his house.

01:04:27
Speaker 3: With you know whatever gas was being used in the house and set some kind of I forget I talk about in the episode. It was some kind of timing device, right that was going to go off and then like blow up his house, and it went off too soon while he was still there, and they were hoping he would give them a deathbed confession. Because he didn’t die immediately. He was flown to a hospital, but he never he never said anything.

01:04:55
Speaker 1: You ever seen the movie in the Bedroom, it’s a lobster trap reference.

01:05:01
Speaker 2: There’s a.

01:05:03
Speaker 1: There’s a murder and they know who did it, Yeah, but they never face justice until they do.

01:05:08
Speaker 3: Yeah.

01:05:09
Speaker 1: It like a little bit surprises me, not surprises me, but you can imagine the family at a point being like we’re just gonna have to.

01:05:20
Speaker 2: Figure this, like we’re gonna have to do what needs to happen.

01:05:24
Speaker 3: And I can see that temptation for sure. I think talking with Linda and Tracy, the youngest daughter, they feel like knowing what happened won’t change what happened. They really just want to give Lujrah a proper burial. They want to put him to rest in a respectful way that he deserves. And that’s really all that they’re motivated to do at this point. Because Linda has been she has been pushing, you know, for years. She was part of a group that actually helped to push the state legislature to open like a cold case unit in the state police because they didn’t have that before. She you know, runs a Facebook page where she you know, advocates for both her case but also other people’s cases. She posts about other disappearances, other unsolved murders, and so she’s just been, you know, trying for years to to bring some measure of closure to her and her family. And I think she’s not I don’t want to speak for her, but but I think that’s her her primary motivation now, as opposed to, like, you know what I imagine right after it happened. In the years after it happened, which was to bring the guys who did it to justice. Now it’s really just we want to find him. We want to figure out what happened.

01:07:05
Speaker 1: Let’s let’s jump ahead to a twenty eighteen homicide, uh against Chong Mua Yang, a Mung guy. We’ve had Monk, We’ve had Mung guys from We’ve had Mung guys by the last.

01:07:23
Speaker 2: Name of Yang.

01:07:25
Speaker 1: Our friend Ya Yang comes on the show now and then it’s a clan name.

01:07:31
Speaker 2: Your last name is a clan name. Okay. The mung as we as we’ve covered in past podcast episodes.

01:07:42
Speaker 1: Uh, there are there’s a there’s a large mung pot, not large, there’s a there’s a significance of substantial mung population in the United States of America.

01:07:52
Speaker 2: The Mung.

01:07:54
Speaker 1: Listeners, I’m sure you’re you’ve heard of the Vietnam War. Well, Uh, the Vietnam War was not confined to Vietnam obviously, and the US ran a lot of covert operations both in Cambodian laos. You’ll hear mentions of like the Ho Chiman Trail, for instance, and the Ho Chiman Trail was not like a specific trail that you have to imagine it like a constantly changing route. And so in trying to attack supply lines from the north, we would sometimes stray over into Cambodia or Laos.

01:08:29
Speaker 2: And also.

01:08:31
Speaker 1: Our enemy in the war, like they had bases and infrastructure and operations happening outside of Vietnam. So we ran what we now know as like the secret wars. We ran these like covert operations which involved US military personnel.

01:08:50
Speaker 2: The way.

01:08:53
Speaker 1: You know, if you think back to like the way green brays function, the way some CIA paramility areas function is they used indigenous forces right like they’re regarded as force multipliers. So when we were fighting the communists in Vietnam and fighting the Communists in Laos, we were allied with a tribe, the Mung, who were a somewhat stateless people. They were a mountain tribe. They were a somewhat stateless people and they hated the Communists. So we are CIA paramilitary Special operation guys allied with the Mum. When we pulled out of Vietnam, it was very similar to picture when we pulled out of Afghanistan. How many we took some of our collaborators with us, but translators, collaborators were abandoned in Afghanistan to be hunted down and killed by the Taliban, arrested by the Taliban.

01:10:01
Speaker 2: So when we pulled.

01:10:02
Speaker 1: Out of Vietnam, we brought a lot Among. We brought a lot Among with us. We brought him into Missoula, Montana. We brought him into Minnesota, and then over the years, other Monk would slowly make their way out of Laos cross into Thailand. In Thailand they could go into refugee camps and then also could wind up emigrating to the US as asylum seekers because they were stateless. They had assisted the Americans, and the Communists were still hunting for them. The Mong, being a mountain people, are historic hunters right in the places where the Munks settled that they took up hunting in America and they This is just me editorializing here, like I’m doing a crash course in a little bit of history to understand this case a little bit. The Mong developed a reputation, developed a reputation as these as violators and poachers.

01:11:11
Speaker 2: Okay, Now, when we had Ya yang On, who’s.

01:11:14
Speaker 1: Who whose family came from Laos And yeah, I was actually born overseas, but we had Ya yang On and he he expressed, like we talked about this reputation the monk had and yeah, didn’t apologize for it, and he’s a very law abiding individual obviously, but he was kind of trying to speak to that the people’s experience here. You have a here, you have a stateless people where the government of your here you are in Laos, the government is hunting for you. Like you’re living a secret existence up in the mountains. You’re not represented by the government at all. Your whole life is like clandestine, right, And all of a sudden you get brought to the US and that’s your background, right, and you come to the US and it’s kind of like, oh no, no, helmet, You’re not supposed to hunt squirrels till September fifteenth and you’re allowed five.

01:12:26
Speaker 2: Right.

01:12:26
Speaker 1: He was like, there was just the sort of like you’re going from no government or your government’s hunting you, you know, to like this completely different system. And so he said there was a period when it was just like it was kind of incomprehensible.

01:12:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, like they.

01:12:46
Speaker 1: Knew to hunt, they wanted to hunt. They fed themselves on fish, they fed themselves on game, and it was just hard to understand.

01:12:55
Speaker 2: I mean it’s hard.

01:12:56
Speaker 3: It’s hard for American Yeah, it’s hard for American unders to now a gate sometimes.

01:13:01
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so they.

01:13:05
Speaker 1: Develop this reputation, and of course you have the obvious just racial tension.

01:13:11
Speaker 2: They’re racial tension. We see it.

01:13:12
Speaker 1: There’s other cases where we took guys, so like South Vietnamese who were fighting with us against the North. A lot of South Vietnamese wound up getting involved in shrimping in Louisiana, and there’s huge tension between traditional Cajun shrimpers and these South Vietnamese dudes who are getting set up by churches to compete with them. It’s like tension, and all of a sudden, you’re in Minnesota and all of a sudden, there’s all these guys and they don’t look like you, and they’re from another country, they have different cultural practices, and there they are on the landscape and it’s like, oh, they’re taking all the game. They’re the reasons I’m not seeing anything. And you have a history of then you have a history of just suspicion.

01:14:00
Speaker 3: Easy scapegoat for your own unsuccess.

01:14:02
Speaker 2: Mung dudes. Mung dudes are like, these guys don’t like us. Right.

01:14:08
Speaker 1: In some ways, we like fought for this, We fought for America, but we’re not like but a lot of people were not welcome. We like sacrificed our families and lives fighting your enemies. But now we’re your enemy. Other guys are like all all these new dudes, these Asian dudes are shooting our squirrels or catching our fish or snagging our salmon whatever. Right, and it creates like this atmosphere, Like I love to think that this is fading now, but this was a real thing, and and and and and I had heard about it. Yeah, thank god, I wanted becoming friends with with like becoming friends with a Mung family and getting a better sense of the whole picture, right right.

01:14:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that’s and that’s the background for this homicide of a of a Mung hunter and one of the one of the tricky parts I think, so so with this story. I have read the case file from the bath Township Police. They were the detective there was kind of the primary investigator on this case. Just to kind of preface the rest of this, I haven’t spoken with the family yet, and I will before we before we you know, put out this episode. But currently the status of the case is somewhat open. There there’s an appeals process that’s going on, and so my information comes from the case file, and I imagine some of this will be fleshed out a bit after I talk to people, so just to preface it with that, But reading the case file, it seemed like it was challenging to investigate because there were so many instances of like racial comments being made in this particular like, you know, state is a state park. Hunters in this state park who who you know, made racist comments right against the munk, and so it was like almost too many options right when investigators started this because they’d hear oh so and so said such and such about this mung hunter, Oh so and so sent a text to their buddy saying this racist thing.

01:16:33
Speaker 2: Because then there was the dudes there. There were a lot of examples of this.

01:16:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, just I just want to just interject the thing like kind of like how this stuff works. Yanni and I were down in Missouri hunting in Missouri, and just in our wandering around and hanging out at boat launches and stuff, we’re just shooting the breeze at all these guys all the time.

01:16:56
Speaker 2: These guys are explaining to us, like flat out telling us there’s no squirrels. There’ll be news to people who live this will be news to Missouri squirrel hunters.

01:17:05
Speaker 1: It was funny because we did some squirrel hunting on this trip and did fantastic there’s no squirrels.

01:17:12
Speaker 2: Because the Mung come down from Minneapolis and do big squirrel drives, squirrel drive and yeah, you’re like.

01:17:25
Speaker 1: Mom, some some guys, enough guys, enough Mung guys came down from Minnesota and conducted a squirrel drive in Missouri, in Missouri, the likes of which has eliminated squirrels in Missouri. Mm hmm, yeah, uh huh right, okay, yeah if you say so.

01:17:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe everything everybody tells me.

01:17:46
Speaker 1: So okay, right, I mean just lunacy, yeah, but straight faced right, We’re.

01:17:53
Speaker 2: Like, can you explain a squirrel drive to me? Yeah?

01:17:57
Speaker 3: How does that work? I’d love to know, honestly.

01:17:59
Speaker 2: Because they kind of go into the trees and go into hole.

01:18:03
Speaker 1: You don’t push him out ahead of you, like, they don’t drive, They don’t put squirrels don’t push.

01:18:11
Speaker 3: No, no, they don’t, they don’t.

01:18:13
Speaker 2: You don’t bump squirrels. You don’t moot squirrels.

01:18:17
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, straight faced dude, right, straight faced, like a real problem.

01:18:24
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah right yeah, And that just adds a whole wrinkle to this, to this case, to this investigation, right because you layer that on top of just yeah, because like.

01:18:36
Speaker 1: Oh, he must be the guy because he’s saying all this bad stuff about muggs.

01:18:39
Speaker 2: Like no, everybody’s bitching about the mung guy.

01:18:41
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, everyone is. And also just because you say this doesn’t mean you’re gonna go shoot some guy. So so what happens is it happened in twenty eighteen the Rose Lake State Park in Bathtownship, Michigan. It’s similar to the somewhat similar to the Terry Brisk case, where he goes out hunting by himself. He’s pretty familiar with this area, He’s hunted it quite a bit, and he doesn’t come home.

01:19:08
Speaker 2: It’s after dark.

01:19:09
Speaker 3: The family launches a search party and he’s found he’s been shot in the head once and from there, the investigation, you know, moves forward, and again it’s extremely difficult. There’s limited evidence. There’s some footprints around the body that are that investigators have a tough time matching to, you know, anyone specific person to kind of skip ahead a bit. The way that they eventually name some suspects is basically through they they get pings from their cell phones that they were in this area. They put in a request basically to Verizon or eighteen t or whoever, like, give me all the cell phones of anyone who’s in this area on this day at this time, and these two guys pop up. Another thing that happens is is a witness. So soh Yang is killed and all his stuff has been stolen, like he doesn’t his backpack is gone. He had a shotgun that was gone. And so a witness sees two guys walking down the road and one of them is holding two long guns. They’re obviously hunters, but one of them is holding two long guns, which is obviously strange. And so eventually they’re able to, uh, you know, they identify these guys. The one guy’s name is Thomas Olsen. The other guy’s name is Robert Roadway. They identify them, you know, they they interrogate them. They do find a can of like scent spray. I think it was like to you put on your boots to like, you know, remove your scent.

01:20:55
Speaker 2: So this guy’s a deer hunting.

01:20:56
Speaker 3: They’re deer hunting. Yeah, they’re deer hunting, and believe it or not, they say it’s like one of their first times deer hunting. They’re not like experienced hunters, these guys. So they find this can of scent spray with Olsen’s DNA on it in the vicinity of the body, and so they feel like they have enough to charge both of these guys with murder. A thing about this case that I haven’t figured out yet, and this is I want to talk with people and figure this out, is Robert Roadway’s charges were dropped. They charged both of them initially, but his charges were dropped, and according to the Attorney General from Michigan, they say they were dropped due to an unresolved issue regarding admissibility of evidence. And so I don’t know what that like, what specifically that’s referring to. I don’t know if the an investigator messed it up. I don’t know if they just decided, like because only one of them, presume pulled the trigger, yeah right, and so I don’t know if they just figured we think it’s Olsen not Roadway. I don’t know.

01:22:07
Speaker 2: Well, the other one would be least obstruction of justice, right right, and they were very.

01:22:14
Speaker 3: You know, they sat down for interviews and to be clear, you know, just so everyone knows. Olsen maintains his innocence to this day. His family says he was wrongfully convicted. He says he didn’t do it, and they say that evidence was not substantial enough to convict him. But he was convicted in twenty twenty four. Last year, a jury convicted him of I believe it was second degree murder. He got sentenced to twenty to sixty years in prison. But he’s appealing right now as we’re recording this. He has asked for a retrial, which is kind of the first step. A lot of times in the appeal process, you ask for a retrial, you say, you know, my representation wasn’t sufficient, they didn’t do a good job. I want a new trial, and then I presume they’ll go through the appellate process. So that’s where this case is now. So this is really an ongoing situation.

01:23:07
Speaker 1: The text message exchange is right our bizarre where there’s a different guy who has a text message, a different person of interest in the investigation that had texted someone about how he was going.

01:23:24
Speaker 2: To kill yeah Yang different guy.

01:23:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, uh, I was just kidding, he says, he was kidding, and I have an alibi. I was just like making a joke about how someone should kill the mong guy.

01:23:36
Speaker 3: And he did have an alibi, according to the case record. Because there were a few guys, there was one in particular that they were really looking into for several years, right, because remember this happened in twenty eighteen, so there was this has gone on for the last six years. There was one guy they were looking into pretty closely. They eventually ruled him out because they confirmed he wasn’t in the area when this happened. And so you’re right, these text messages were one of the most damning pieces of evidence because you know, Rodway and Olsen are texting back and forth about this case, joking, joking about it, you know, making racist comments.

01:24:14
Speaker 1: They they go back there and hunt, and they go back there and hunt. Years two years later they do, and there’s a photo of them and one of the one of the guys text with the photo text the other one a couple of cold blooded killers revisiting the crime scene.

01:24:28
Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, then there’s a lot like that.

01:24:31
Speaker 3: There’s a lot of very yeah, very damn.

01:24:35
Speaker 2: It just funny, right, they like they think it’s funny.

01:24:38
Speaker 3: They think it’s funny.

01:24:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that they they had texted each other in a Meat Eater article.

01:24:44
Speaker 3: They did, yep. Yeah, one of them sent Pat Dirkin uh covered a story about among guy who killed I think it was six hunters. It was a pretty famous case.

01:25:00
Speaker 1: Want just on this There was among guy who trespassed mm hm and was hunting in someone else’s stand. Yeah, these guys confront them him, there’s a shootout, and the mung guy who’s probably trained, I mean he’s probably a veteran. Yeah, they get into a shootout and the mung guy man somehow kills like five or six guys in a shootout.

01:25:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, some of them as they were running away.

01:25:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, now that I mean that Listen, I had my whole preamble, right, it was unfair of me to not point out the way that that in like the way that that case ye, those murders inflamed attentions exactly.

01:25:48
Speaker 3: Yes, Yeah, and that’s that’s another important piece of context.

01:25:52
Speaker 1: That’s a major omission on my part to not mention that there’s like that.

01:25:57
Speaker 3: Right, and and and Pat, you know he wrote an article for us for the website a couple of years ago, and these guys apparently you know, we’re reading Meat Eater or they were sent it, and so they send Pat’s article about this incident, this massacre, and they kind of go back and forth, joking about it, like, you know, this is us, Well, we’re.

01:26:17
Speaker 2: Gonna really understanding the article.

01:26:19
Speaker 3: Though they didn’t. I think they probably just read the headline, but it was about among guy who you know, killed a bunch of people, and you know, they were basically joking about it, going going back and forth.

01:26:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, they’re like, this will be us next year. The d n R won’t be ready.

01:26:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just yeah, I just thought it was wild that, you know, I’m reading this. It’s like, you know, four hundred pages, I’m reading through this case file, and all of a sudden there’s a meat Eater article sent back and forth. But I used to you know, a alleged murderers m So, yeah, that there’s a lot to that case. And I’m very curious to talk to the detective. Hopefully he’ll speak with me, uh and we’ll see, we’ll see where it goes. You know, the evidence was there was evidence, there was that sense spray. There’s these text messages.

01:27:12
Speaker 2: There’s a lot of cell phone pings.

01:27:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, there’s cell phone pings. So there’s certainly evidence. I don’t know if an appellate court will think that there’s enough. And that’s kind of where it is right now.

01:27:25
Speaker 1: Dude. I love America. I love our constitution. Right, that’s the greatest document of governance ever produced. But good lord, do we make it sometimes a little easy.

01:27:45
Speaker 2: To have the ability?

01:27:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, like you want to now and then imagine the world in which you can put screws to people a little bit better to be like, buddy, come on, we’re gonna have a little chat.

01:27:58
Speaker 3: Right right, and you know, just like you’re not going home?

01:28:04
Speaker 2: Yeah uh.

01:28:05
Speaker 3: And and just like going back to the victim’s family, I mean, this has been horrible for them. I mean, and because in this case, file is included like emails back and forth from the detective and the family members and they’re like have you found anything? He’s like, we’re working really hard, you know, and back and forth like this for years. And to go through not only losing your dad, right, your uncle, but to not know who did it and to hear all these rumors, right, because there’s there’s rumors just swirling on social media that they’re hearing from other people, people joking about exactly.

01:28:47
Speaker 2: It’s I can’t imagine. It’s horrible.

01:28:49
Speaker 3: And so you know they, I think, we we’re very happy to get this amount of resolution, and they’re extremely you know, stressed, I think, And and again I haven’t talked to them, just like seeing what they post, you know, brief text exchanges about where this case is going, and just hoping that they’ll get that resolution and it will be final and they can kind of, you know, have that that closure.

01:29:19
Speaker 2: Man, dude, I love it.

01:29:22
Speaker 1: It’s when when do these one of these is going to start coming out? When can people start listening to these krin you.

01:29:26
Speaker 3: Know, uh October thirtieth, Yeah, yeah, October thirtieth, right before Halloween.

01:29:34
Speaker 5: I’m just going to add one plug, which is important for the show and for the audience. Please instead of just go back and listen listening to the trailer in episode one and two and three and four, et cetera.

01:29:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, we skip, we skipped a million of them. We didn’t talk about them more.

01:29:50
Speaker 5: Yeah, they’re they’re a ton, But please, because this is a net new, brand new podcast feed called Blood Trails. Please subscribe. Anywhere you listen to podcasts, please subscribe to the feed.

01:30:07
Speaker 4: It’s a lot of people use the word follow now subscribe out of fashion, sorry button or the follow button or whatever yet, thank.

01:30:15
Speaker 2: You, Phil.

01:30:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, subscribe follow as Phil puts it, follow so you can follow along there you go on Blood Trails. And and then if you got if you got hot tips, send them in dude.

01:30:28
Speaker 3: We uh yeah, We’ve set up an email actually if you have a tip about a case that you think we should cover, or one about one of the cases we do cover. It’s Blood Trails at the meat eater dot com.

01:30:40
Speaker 2: All right, thanks, coming on, Jordan, Yeah, look forward to doing this again.

01:30:44
Speaker 1: Man, look makes me, you know, like sometimes people will tell me about a health problem they’re having, and I start getting the health problem.

01:30:53
Speaker 2: You’re not gonna get murdered.

01:30:55
Speaker 1: No, but I’m saying I’m having like all like all body react.

01:31:00
Speaker 2: I mean, I’m having an all body reaction.

01:31:03
Speaker 5: In these first episodes, Like my muscles are tense. These first episodes we’ve listened to.

01:31:09
Speaker 2: H They’re really good.

01:31:11
Speaker 5: They’re just so good, you know, original reporting, creepy music, like yeah, you get whole body feels while you’re like totally just brought into that world.

01:31:24
Speaker 2: It gets you right in the fields. That’s you, right in the fields. All right, thanks for coming on.

01:31:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely appreciate.

01:31:32
Speaker 2: We’ll do it again.